109. Why Dating Should Be a Part-Time Job – Insights from Narelle Sheehan

Hi, we're Cinthia Varkevisser and Michelle Walters, co-hosts of Mind Power Meets Mystic. Our weekly show is here to expand your mind to what's possible, to uplift your spirits, to move forward with confidence and joy, and to create a space for your collaboration with the invisible. Welcome to Mind Power Meets Mystic.

Welcome listeners to this week's episode of Mind Power Meets Mystic. You are here with me, Michelle Walters. I am the "Mind Power" part of our podcast, and my podcasting pal, Cinthia Varkevisser, is our show mystic. We are excited today because we are talking about a topic that is near and dear to my heart these days, dating. And we have the illustrious, elaborate, enthusiastic Narelle Shehan with us, who is going to introduce herself. Narelle, off to you.

Narelle Shehan:

Wow, I like all those words, Michelle. We need to write that down. So, hello, hello, hello. I love doing podcasts, and I especially love being a guest on a podcast and not having to do all the tech stuff. So I'm so happy to be here. Thank you both for inviting me, and, you know, full disclosure, I know you both, and I just love that you're now both working together. That's very exciting.

So today we’re talking about dating, but my background is absolutely nothing professional about dating. It’s just I’ve survived it, and I’ve had huge success. So that’s why I now have combined my prior life of directing, producing, and being a life coach for too many years, and I’ve put all that together. Now I work on a project I like to call Not a Nurse or a Purse, because I think most women, in the attempt to just be with someone, are very happy to slide right into being a nurse or a purse. And it’s pretty clear what nurse or purse means, and it—you don’t have to! You don’t have to. And for men, too, I don’t want men to be nurses or purses either.

So, yes, I’m Australian, and lived in London a long time, went to RADA, which is the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts, for directing, and then came to America. And I’ve been in America over 30 years, and here I am. I have lived in many big cities in the whole world, but now I live in a little mountain town in the Colorado Rockies with a population of 11. So you might be thinking, how do I meet anybody in a population of 11? Well, luckily, I have been with my partner, which brought about all this dating stuff. I’ve been with him for—oh my God, I’m going to stumble on this—13 years, 12 years? I think it’s 12 years, maybe 10 years. Anyway, it’s pretty good, right? It’s over 10, so, yeah. I’ll let you ask some questions and find out how I met him.

Michelle Walters:

Well, I guess—go ahead, Cinthia.

Cinthia Varkevisser:

No, I’m so sorry. My internet is so off. I love Not a Nurse or a Purse, and I agree with you that a lot of people walk into relationships willing to settle, and also that they’re actually looking for a project because they believe that’s what they want to contribute to the relationship. Before we go into anything else, can we talk a little bit about what you mean by nurse or purse, or more specifically, what do people tend to do to become one or the other?

Narelle Shehan:

Yeah. So this project started out that I got divorced 14, 15 years ago. I had two little kids, and I still have two kids, but they’re not little anymore. And I had pretty much decided—not a bad divorce, malignant narcissistic sociopath—I didn’t even know those words when I got married. You know, blah, blah, blah. Family court too many times to even mention. I’ve probably been in family court more than a family court judge has ever been in family court. But anyway, too much of that. And I just thought, look, I’m really happy. I’m good by myself. I love going out. I love not going out. And I’ll just stick with that. That’s great. Have my kids, have a great traveling life, love my clients, love my job.

And then my very dear friend Tim came from Australia, and he said—he’s going to be listening to this, so this is the starring role part—he came from Australia, and without using his exact words, he said basically, "You know, Narelle, we were raised Catholic, so we didn’t experiment very much." And he said, "You know, you won’t be alone because you’ve got an enthusiastic personality, as Michelle said. So between now and when you meet a partner, go and basically have a lot of fun with everybody and, you know, just go and see what types are out there."

And I definitely came from a relationship that wasn’t kind. He wasn’t kind in any shape or form. So my intention was, yeah, let’s go and see what people are like. So I decided if I was going to get through that, I would date 100 people and see what happened. Now, a lot of people like to translate that I slept with 100 people. I did not sleep with 100 people. Um, I did sleep with a bunch of them. I had a great time, and I met so many people that a lot of them are still my friends on Facebook, and we have a giggle. And it was God’s intervention that we didn’t end up together, because we just shouldn’t have ended up together.

Every time I came home from a date, I would write notes about it and write a chapter about it. I haven’t published that book yet, but that is definitely in draft form and to be published soon. I actually, very honestly, have waited for my children to get older before I publish that book. And it’s called Where Did All the Irish Catholics Go? because I did not marry an Irish Catholic, and I should have followed my mother’s advice and married the type, because I would have known what to do with an Irish Catholic. I didn’t marry an Irish Catholic, and it went very badly. So that’s the title.

So when I started off all this dating, my greatest joy was that people are so nice. People are really nice. And I have a bit of a reputation that I’ll talk to anyone, anywhere, and everyone’s my friend until they’re not. And, you know, I have no strangers in my life, as my friend likes to say. So I decided that I would never not show up, I would never leave unless I felt it was dangerous, and I would just be so curious about everybody.

Added to that, of course, I was with a therapist at the time, thank God. And somewhere along the line, 10 or 15 people in, my fabulous therapist Lynn, who is just a joy still in my life, said to me, "When the check comes, you’re going to look the other way. You’re never going to pay. Never, ever, ever, ever will you pay a check."

Now, first of all, culturally, this isn’t very Australian. We always go halves. It was awkward. It was really awkward. I hate that little moment. So I thought, okay, I’ll do it for five people, like five dates, and see how it goes. I also changed my profile—this was all online dating, by the way—to say, "I’m not paying." Like, don’t think you’re going out with me and I’m going to pay.

That was great because it cut out all the poor people, the actors, the entertainment people, the cheap or nasty ones. I practiced this whole not paying, and for about 80 or 90 dates, I didn’t pay. That was my lesson. The reason I’m going into this long rambling thing is that dating has to start at the place where you have the most anxiety. Otherwise, you will never get over it. My anxiety was being used for money again, being taken advantage of. And the "not a nurse" part is that I’m not very good at nursing. I mean, I’m really good at ordering food, trains for people, and flowers and all that sort of stuff, but I’m not good at sitting by someone’s bed and holding their hand.

Also, I didn’t want someone so much older that, you know, they don’t have the same music or literary references I have. For me, I wanted someone around my age. Hence, I didn’t want to nurse anybody. Now, obviously, my disclaimer is, if I got with someone and they had cancer, I probably wouldn’t have left them, but you know...

Michelle Walters:

I hear you, I hear you. Narelle, and I think that was—Cinthia, you had a question?

Cinthia Varkevisser:

Yeah, I think that was really helpful. My issue has not been so much purse, but I love your recommendations here. My issue has been nurse, honestly. So, I’ve had two partners already, two life partners, and they both passed away. And I stuck with them until the end, and don’t regret it, that’s what I did, but now I gotta find a new one.

Narelle Shehan:

You know, it’s interesting, sorry, let me take you up. But you just reminded me of something that, you know, I also thought, you know, "Oh, I hate it when people judge people on how they look," and la la la la. And, you know, I am no skinny mini at all, and never have been. And that’s a whole other topic. I’ll come back for another podcast about that. But I’m a bariatric advocate, and, you know, I put clearly in my resume, I am five foot 10 and a half. I’m not five foot two and 120 pounds, probably I was at birth, but I am not now. And I had quite a few people walk into a situation, look me up and down, and go "No," and left.

Now, don’t get me wrong, there were some very painful incidences. They were followed up by texts that said, "How dare you not indicate what size you are?" "How dare you indicate that you’re ugly?" "How dare you not indicate that you’re…" I mean, horrible, horrible things. And, you know, when you’re dating, it’s also heightened and like, horrible. And then, you know, but then in reality, clearly I’m so good looking and attractive and fabulous that you start going, "Wait a minute, f*** you!" So my point in that is that I wanted to meet someone who was super healthy, and if they weren’t super, super healthy, I wanted to meet someone who did active things, who was physical, who wanted to go places, and who had a sport or a history of sports.

The whole "not a nurse" thing was, you know, I met one guy, well, I better not say what his disability was because it was a big disability, but okay, he didn’t have any legs. And when I found out he didn’t have any legs, which is a whole other story—you’ll have to DM me personally for that—I realized I couldn’t be taking that wheelchair in and out of the car. I fly a lot. I can’t be taking that wheelchair on board. So that’s my example of not a nurse.

And I’ve made it very clear to my partner now. If he gets sick, he’s going in a home, baby. I mean, I’ll visit, absolutely, but, you know, we’ll just have to end it because we don’t want to do that. Neither of us want to do that. Anyway, that sounds very trite if you don’t know me very well, but you know what I’m saying.

So yes, and my thing as well about the nurse was I didn’t want to fix anyone anymore. That was the big nursing part. I never thought I could fix anyone or change anyone, but I thought as a partnership, partners evolve together. No, they don’t. If you’re married to a narcissist, no, it doesn’t evolve. So I didn’t want to nurse those feelings. I didn’t want to nurse that sort of never-ending battle. I didn’t want to be in a domestic violence situation, which I was verbally. I didn’t want any of that, nursing them or me.

So, that’s where the nurse or purse comes from as well.

Michelle Walters:

Okay. Well, I want to remind all of our listeners that they are listening to Mind Power Meets Mystic, with me, Michelle Walters, and my podcasting partner, Cinthia Varkevisser. We are here talking today to Narelle Shehan about one of the things she works on, which is dating, and her program Not a Nurse or a Purse.

Narelle Shehan:

No, it’s Not a Nurse or a Purse.

Michelle Walters:

Not a Nurse or a Purse. All right, gotta get it right!

Narelle Shehan:

Not Nurse versus Purse!

Michelle Walters:

It’s versus the Freudian slip, Michelle, Freudian slip—Nurse or Purse!

Cinthia Varkevisser:

I actually agree with you, Narelle. I was like, "Oh, that’s a red flag right there!"

Michelle Walters:

ears—he passed. That was in: 2011

So, but what I’m finding now, because now I’m back again in the dating pool, is that it seems like the people I meet online are like, not really into this. It’s very, very hard to meet people online, and yet it wasn’t, it didn’t seem so hard before. And I can say, well, some of it must be me, right? I’m 10 years older, but I think some of it is actually kind of the marketplace or the way people are meeting people, and so I’m curious what your observations are in terms of kind of, what’s going on with online dating? What alternatives are there? What are good alternatives? How do you meet the right guy?

Narelle Shehan:

Yeah, that’s such a great question. I think that, I mean, you know, the general thing in life is "do something you love, get in a group or activity, and the angels will sing, and you’ll connect over a hockey stick or something." But I don’t think that happens. I think dating is a part-time job. That’s it. I don’t care what anyone says. I get mad when people say to me, who hire me because I have groups and I private coach, "Oh my God, dating is so much work." Yeah, yes, it is. It is so much f***ing work to find someone to live with for the rest of your life.

We spend all that time finding a house. We spend all that time doing our garden. We spend all that time researching cars. This is the person that you want to be with forever. One basic thing I do in my groups is write a list of 100 things you want—100! I mean, so specific. Like, that they don’t say Pacific when they mean specific. I can’t stand when people use grammar incorrectly. I wrote that down! You know, with my ex-partners, they must be as educated as I am, must, must, must. I have a PhD. I need someone with that level of education. I need someone who is spiritual. I need someone who is not an anti-vaxxer. I need someone who is a Democrat. I need all the things, right? All the things. And in my case, I needed someone to pay, that’s it! I needed someone to pay.

Now don’t get me wrong, of course I pay for things, but when we go on a date, I need him to pay. I need him to take out the card, I need him to do the romance. So yeah, make that list specific.

Narelle Shehan:

Now, don’t all be haters and send me hate mail. Of course, I pay for things. Of course I do. But what I need, when my partner and I go on a date or something, even though we have a joint account, I need him to pay. I need him to take out the card. I need him to not tell me what the bill says. I need him to do the romance. I need him to do that. Now, of course, in the car I’ll go, "How much was that? $62?" and he’ll be like, "That much?" So, you know, obviously we’ve been together a while now.

The other thing is, in your profile online, don’t lie. Don’t lie! I can’t tell you the amount of men I went out with who showed up and said they were six feet or above, and they were five foot six. "Oh, but really, no one ever notices." I notice! I’m 5’10 and a half. You’re not six feet. "Yeah, but it doesn’t really matter." It matters to me. "Women say they want that, but they don’t." Yes, they do!

There were some dates where I would say to these guys, "Okay, listen, I’m just going to have coffee or a drink with you, because you’ve lied, period." And there’s no going around this. So, don’t lie. Don’t lie about your age. Like, I’m 58. I was 45 when I was doing this. I never said I was 40. I never said, "Oh, I’m a certain age, but I act like I’m between 30 and 40." No, I’m not. I was 45. Please don’t tell me, "Oh, I act like a 55-year-old man, but I’m really 82." No, you’re done, you’re 82! You’re 82. Back to Not a Nurse or a Purse. You’re 82, that’s fine.

Interestingly enough, I’ll tell you about the list. About four years after I had been with Mead—and also, too, we didn’t live together for three years, that’s another topic—but after four years, I found the list in, you know, like I had a—this is old 12-step stuff—a "God Box," and in my God Box, if anyone’s out there aware of 12-step stuff, I found the list. I pulled it out, and Mead is 99 things on that list!

Michelle Walters:

Wow! Of course, your next question is, what is he not?

Narelle Shehan:

I was hoping you’d say it! He doesn’t have an Irish accent!

Michelle Walters:

Oh, wow.

Narelle Shehan:

I mean, that’s pretty good, right? And, you know, I’m American—I mean, I’m Australian—so he has an American accent. That’s close, that’s close enough. But I mean, honest to God, like, I live my life manifesting miracles by doing the work. It’s not just the Secret phenomenon of the ‘90s BS. I’ve got another story about that for another time. You’ve got to do the work. You have to do the work as well. And I worked hard to find someone with, apparently, 99 of the things I wanted.

Here’s another thing—start calling each other on it. There are times where he and I will be driving along now, and he’ll say, "You know, when we first met, you said this is what you wanted in a person, and you don’t do that anymore." Or, "I wanted this in a person, and now you’re not doing that either. Or I’m not doing that. Let’s reevaluate that."

For example, let me think of something that’s not too crazy. Oh, I know! We’re both entrepreneurs, we both work at home, we live in a town with only 11 people. So when Mead comes in from his office, which is outside, to my office, which is here, we’re usually very good at saying to each other, "Are you on a call? Are you about to go on a call? Are you with a client? Have you eaten? Can I talk about, did you pay the credit card bill?" And he will say, "Oh, I don’t want to talk about that." Or, "Hey, guess what, I did pay the bill." He’ll come to me and say, "Have you eaten? Are you on a call? What’s for dinner? Should we make something?" And I’ll be like, "Oh my God, cereal, that’s it!"

We know each other well enough now, and we always wanted to have a situation where we just check in with each other before we get into the mundane stuff. Ask for what you want from day one. If you like Michelle, what’s one thing you want in your next partner that you’ve never had before?

Michelle Walters:

Oh, that I’ve never had before? That’s a hard one because between my previous two partners, they pretty much checked the boxes, but…

Narelle Shehan:

Here’s what I say to you without being facetious: They’re both dead, so they’re not checking the boxes now!

Michelle Walters:

(Laughs) No, they’re not checking the boxes now. The second partner was super healthy when I met him. He got a weird disease, but super healthy is important. And I have already had to reject a couple of people who didn’t meet the healthy enough criteria or who were too old.

Narelle Shehan:

Bring it down to something really little. What’s one really little thing you would love?

Michelle Walters:

I don’t know if it’s really little, but has to have a passport that’s not expired.

Narelle Shehan:

That’s huge, but yes, yes, yes, yes. That’s important to me too! Has the passport, and it’s not expired. And to me, that’s an indicator of somebody who expects to travel. I want someone who expects to travel.

Narelle Shehan:

And here’s the extended thing about that—if their passport is about to expire, they fix that! They do the photos. They don’t start saying, "Oh, we don’t have a trip planned, so I’ll wait." No! You’ve said you want someone with a passport. That is one of the top 100 things that never changes.

Cinthia Varkevisser:

I do have a question for Michelle about the 100 things. With 100 things, you do have to get incredibly specific, and I’m going to assume that even between your two loves, there were still things they didn’t check off.

Michelle Walters:

Yes, that is the way to approach the question with me. That’s exactly—you know me very well, Cinthia. And I think one of the things that I would say with that is, how do I say it exactly... a risk taker who talks to me in depth about approach to risk and risk together. And I wouldn’t say that it was all that far off with my previous partners, but it’s gotta be super on for the next one.

Narelle Shehan:

I have a great example of that. So I don’t want Mead getting a motorbike. I just don’t. When I was a child, our best friends’ son had a huge motorbike accident. He came to live with us for six months. This was in the ‘70s, so medicine is better now, but anyway. Mead’s a guy, he’s naughty, he’ll go fast, he won’t wear a helmet. We live in a mountain community. Is it solidly cut and dry? No, because I’m not a control freak. But I believe there’s enough understanding in our relationship that he wouldn’t one day say, "You know what? F*** you, I’m getting a bike, that’s what I always wanted."

Michelle Walters:

No, that makes sense to me.

Narelle Shehan:

Oh, 100 things. I’ve easily made lists of 20 or 50 things, but 100? 100 is going to be a push. But probably an excellent idea, Narelle.

Michelle Walters:

And I like a lot of the things you’re saying because some of the things that are important to you are important to me, too. I’m 5’10 and a half as well.

Narelle Shehan:

Yeah! I’ve gotten a lot of likes online from men who are five-six or five-seven, and it’s not my ideal. I think I should keep looking.

Narelle Shehan:

It’s not attractive to me either. I explained to a lot of men, "I want to feel like they can take care of me." I’m not attracted to shorter men. I’m just not. Period. You know, in the beginning, I dated every nationality, but ended up with a generic privileged white American male. What am I going to do? It’s not his fault.

But again, you have to get specific, and I think, you know what? If you’re thinking that people aren’t into it, it’s because you’re not being encouraging enough. You have to be on it. It is a sales pitch. It is an interview. It is everything!

Michelle Walters:

I have to say, when I was married, on my list I had maybe 10 things, but one of them was that I wanted to marry someone who was bilingual. And when I met my husband, I was like, "Oh, that’s not important." But looking back, I thought about it again and again, and there was some meat to it. So, yeah, you’re right, the specifics are important.

Narelle Shehan:

God love our friend Heather, we all have our vegan friend Heather. On my list, it was "gotta eat steak." Seriously, like, got to go to Brazilian barbecue with me! That was important. And, you know, we still go to Brazilian barbecue. I’m not a vegan. Obviously, as we get older, our diets change anyway. But I was that specific about things like that. I’ll have to get out the list when I’m doing my groups.

Cinthia Varkevisser:

Speaking of groups, what do you have going on? Because you know we adore you.

Narelle Shehan:

Oh my God, you guys are too kind. Can I come back and do another podcast?

Michelle Walters:

Absolutely!

Narelle Shehan:

Well, what I am starting in the new year is a weekly masterclass, suggested by our dear friend Katerina Rando, coach extraordinaire. She’s been encouraging me to do a monthly free class. But what I always have running is a three-month dating group. This is how it works most effectively: I find six friends who are single—mostly women. If you find six friends, one is complimentary, and we’ll work together for three months. We’ll go through aware, repair, and renew, and really hone in on what you’re doing wrong. It’s not wrong meaning bad, just not right. You’ve got to have all the tools.

Michelle Walters:

Your stuff will definitely be in our show notes.

Narelle Shehan:

Thank you so much for having me!

Michelle Walters:

Thank you so much for coming to Mind Power Meets Mystic today, Narelle. This was so much fun, and we so appreciate you and your skills, your talent, and your joyous sense of humor.

Narelle Shehan:

You guys are great. Thank you!

Cinthia Varkevisser and Michelle Walters:

Thank you! We’ll see you again soon!