93. Fatherhood and Community Leadership: An Interview with Pastor Donnell Jones

Michelle Walters: Hi, we're Cinthia Varkevisser and Michelle Walters, co-hosts of "Mind Power Meets Mystic." Our weekly show is here to expand your mind to what's possible, uplift your spirits to move forward with confidence and joy, and create a space for your collaboration with the invisible. Welcome to "Mind Power Meets Mystic." Welcome, friends. You are listening to this week's episode of "Mind Power Meets Mystic." I am Michelle Walters, the mind power hypnosis part of our show, and I'm joined with my co-host Cinthia Varkevisser, who's our show mystic. We are very excited to be celebrating Father's Day on this particular episode. And we have an esteemed dad here to join us. Danelle Jones is an ordained minister who has served the Christian community and the nonprofit sector for the past 30 years, serving as district presiding elder and as a senior pastor for the past 36 years in different states and various communities. Danelle has been able to take advantage of opportunities to be an effective and passionate community leader. He is married to Christine Banks Jones, and they have four kids. Both the pastor and his wife are ministers of the gospel. He is a graduate of the Interdenominational Theological Center in Atlanta, Georgia, where he met his wife and received his Master's of Divinity, and Miles College, Birmingham, Alabama, with a BS in Business Administration. Welcome, Pastor Jones.

Pastor Jones: Thank you. Good afternoon.

Michelle Walters: We are very happy to have you here today because we were thinking, who's a good dad that we could have on our podcast. And I know a lot of great dads. My dad's been on our podcast. But you know, we thought we'd hear from someone new this year. And so we thought of you because we know you have four kids. So tell us a little bit about your family, Danelle.

Pastor Jones: Alrighty. Well, thank you for having me today. It's a first for me, normally, I'm preaching Father's Day or doing some kind of breakfast Father's Day representation going to have this weekend. And so I am married and married 25 years to someone we met in seminary, just to be candid. We were friends the first three years of seminary and not even interested in one another, as she was dating someone else. I was traveling up and down the road pastoring. And the last semester of the school, I got this little voice in my head who said that she would be my wife. And so I went to her and I said, "Hey, listen, Christine, you know, I think the Lord said to me that you're going to be my wife." And she looked me dead in the eye, Michelle, and said, "He hasn't spoken to me yet." And so I like to tell that story representing a 25-year marriage and four children. That marriage is a job. It's a job. Parenting is a job. And so I have been married 25 years to Christine, and we have four children who are all four years apart. They range from 23 to 11 years old. And we spent the last 15 years or 16 years or so actually last 20 years sacrificing our careers to educate these children. So my 23-year-old just finished USC last May. I have a 19-year-old that's at UC Santa Cruz studying global health. And then I have a 16-year-old over at the Branson School in Ross, and an 11-year-old son that just completed the sixth grade and is headed to the seventh grade with ninth and 10th grade level reading. So I'm dealing with some kids that are smarter than me and tell me what to do.

Michelle Walters: Well, I love, I'm sure I would love all of your children, but I have to say I have a particular affinity for the one who's going to UC Santa Cruz because that's my alma mater.

Pastor Jones: Well, he loves Santa Cruz because of the atmosphere, the ambiance, and it looks similar to the Branson School there with all of the trees and the scrubs and things around. And so he enjoys that outdoor life. He's really enjoying himself. And as a matter of fact, he just completed two semesters of organic chemistry.

Michelle Walters: Oh, good for him. I didn't do that. It was hard.

Pastor Jones: I wouldn't even attempt.

Michelle Walters: So, Danelle, with these four kids, you've got to have had some good times with them. What are some of the joys that you have experienced being a dad?

Pastor Jones: Ah, some of the joys, you know, they come daily, weekly, monthly, annually. Well, let me just start here. Because for me, when I was my kids' age, my father wasn't at home. They split up when I was 10 or 11 years old. So for me, it's a joy just being able to be there. That's, you know, and so whatever, you know, when they were little right now, it's a little different process, growing and growing. But when they were small, the joy of it was with holidays, and the fireplace making s'mores at home, and playing a game that we had, Shabalala Ding Dong. So we have this beloved dog that would have a ding dong. You would hide something in the house, and everyone else would know where it is except Shabalala Ding Dong. I would always be Shabalala Ding Dong. So then I would put on this show, oh, they were crazy and stupid, and all that looking for it. Oh, you're getting hot. No, you're getting cold. And while we're playing, I'm acting up, the kids, you know, I can't explicitly tell you everything. But no, but I think it gives us all that idea. But it was a fun family game.

Michelle Walters: A fun family game and a time to be silly, right?

Pastor Jones: Right. And I'm silly. I'm that silly person. I'm that silly person. I'm sorry. And so the other piece to that is that I enjoy, we enjoy mindless traveling. One of the ways that I feel that children can be educated is you expose them to a lot of different things. And so it was eight to 10 of us in the household. My father owned his own business. He had a lumber company. And we never took vacations because he worked round the clock, you know. And then it was so many of us, we, and his family was in Arkansas. That's the only place I know we were going, Arkansas. And so I made a great effort in making sure that I would expose my children to traveling, expose them to the various educational pieces that they could learn to travel. You know, and so the Civil Rights trail, you know, go to Disney. And we've been to several different places. And so I get a joy out of that. We just go. My family are campers. When they were kids, we were camping at Dorian Beach, Bodega Bay. We would come home from down south every August because my wife's family would have an annual camping trip with the Marin Rod and Gun Club. They were a family of hunters and fishermen. And so they had this camping trip and the kids would love to do that. So that's the joy of fatherhood for me, just being with my kids and enjoying seeing them grow and the changes that take place. That's invaluable for me.

Michelle Walters: I think it's beautiful. I'd like to remind everyone that they are listening to "Mind Power Meets Mystic" with Michelle Walters and Cinthia Varkevisser, and that we have the honor of speaking with Pastor Danelle Jones. So if you like what you’re hearing, like us, subscribe to us, tell your friends, share the podcast, please. And we'd love to hear any kind of feedback that you have so that we can go ahead and explore your suggestions. So I actually have a question for you. Yes, we are mostly a, our listeners are mostly women. And if you know Michelle and I belong to a couple of women's groups, and so it's very easy for us to get into mom mode and talk about mom things. And with that, there are some preconceived notions about fatherhood. And I'm sure you hear about complaints from women about women do this and, you know, the moms do this. And the dads do that. Any myths that you want to bust about fatherhood? Because it's really easy to get on the mom train, especially since, you know, I'm a mom as well. And, you know, we just talk about how hard it is. And it's true, parenthood is hard. However, I don't really get to hear a whole lot about fatherhood. So what are the myths? What's really hard? What's the heartbreaks? What are the challenges that you know, that you can help all the other moms, our mom listeners out there be a little bit kinder to the dads?

Pastor Jones: You would ask that question right now. That's a great question. Because I believe that that question is answered during the stages of those children's growth. When you look at mom, mom, mom, when they're young, mom is the, she's the protector. She's the, if you let mom be mom, right. And so you're just there as a father to be a support provider, and, you know, to play with those kids and get them to look up to the dad. And when dad comes into place, they should be, they should get excited, because while most of their time as a youngster is spent with mom. And so with that being said, mom becomes the person that's closest, if you looked at any family, any child, or any fact, most of the time, even like, in all cultures do, because this question can be answered in different ways in different cultures. And so I'm trying to be what we would say in the religious community, ecumenical about this. And so, but moms are the closest, and children develop a different kind of relationship with children than dad. And dads have to come and understand, sometimes understand that children always going to gravitate to mom all the time. And so that sometimes can be an issue. In a household, sometimes it could develop some kind of myths, or problems or whatever. But one of the things that we have to be careful of in that is, is that mom cannot become a friend. But stay in that place of mom and authority. Sometimes we do, sometimes it's, you know, you know, dads sometimes can be a little tougher, a little stronger than moms in every area, discipline, communication, everything because that's who men are. And so, but then, you know, then mom comes back around and tenderizes everything that is okay. When it's done collectively, right. But if it's done in an individual way that requires that, that would have, that the child would think, "Oh, I gotta, I'm in, I can't go to dad, mom's gonna be easier." You know, when you get in trouble, you aren't, who you think is not gonna give you the? Right? And who is that always? That's mom. That's, it's the natural order of things. And so with all of the myths and with all of the other things that have gone on and things that are being said about dad, it's just going to be because that's how the natural order of things are going to be. I'm dealing with some issues right now with two children in that particular piece. But it, you know, I understand that that's the issue, but you cannot allow that to get in between the parent, that's when it becomes a problem. Right. And so, but those issues, those myths and those things just, they need to just run off the back like water on a duck's back, because there's no way you're going to change that stuff. Because children have been connected to an umbilical cord for nine months. They've been feeding off of this mother, they feel this mother's emotions, they feel her heart, they feel that. And so quite naturally, they're going to lean towards mom more. We have to understand that.

Cinthia Varkevisser: No, I totally hear you. I totally hear you. And I see you and I agree with you. I think I just want to build up the idea of being a dad though, because I think that, that it's the, it's the duality, or the two-sidedness that is really, really, I think, really, really beautiful.

Pastor Jones: I'll say this, in that the way you got to be a dad, a real good dad, is to acknowledge that, and work in that space. You know, and what I mean by, and then if there's some issues with the closeness, the friendship, or the parenting, the new parents need to work that out, you need to take that and work that out. And so if you don't, it's going to create it, then the children are gonna stop playing in between the two parents. They will, if you know anything about psychology kids, if you can't, that they will do it. And then they will do it without you being different. Yeah, that's true. They will do that without because that too, to have enough. So and one thing that I'm learning as a dad is, is that so when that happens, dad is in a position that has to take the time, like I have my son with me in school at work today, you know, just to spend that time talking and spending that time loving on him and being another way so they will understand that this is, this is who we are. And that you cannot, you cannot, you have to be, you have to state your position as a child and we have to keep our position as a parent, but also let that child know that he's loved. And then there's always window of opportunity to build those things up. So I think that I'm in now if you want to get into my culture, it's not a whole lot of dads at home. So it's been a lot of moms raising dads because the prisons are full of African American men and men and brown men. And there's a lot of brown and black men who did not have that to home. And that's traumatizing for children that, that end. And without that direction, you can just see the difference. I can see the difference between just my brothers-in-law who left, dad left when I was 11. So I had brothers who were five and six. But it took us a lifetime to get to the place where we are now because we had to go the scenic route, you had to deal with some failures and faults and this and that. But when you have both parents at home, a strong dad, a strong place and a strong dad is willing to deal with that and willing to go to the issues of parenting and marital, it's all of it comes with parenting, you have to, you have to manage all of that. And so with that being said, if you can maintain that and keep that in the forefront of the children, you have better, they give them a foundation that they will, regardless of what's going on, they take out a love for that household or family, it's just the family foundation to build.

Cinthia Varkevisser: Yeah, that's totally beautiful. That's, that's awesome. We wanted to also understand what differences you've seen between your kids in their 20s and your kid who's way younger because I, oh, yours is a big age gap.

Pastor Jones: Yeah, so my oldest, like I said, well, the difference, there's a lot of variables that affect that answer. So my oldest was a spoiled brat because she was the only child for four years. And so she teases the others about how she got hot chocolate every morning going to kindergarten from Starbucks, you know, we were able to do that. So and then, when the second one came, DJ, I had them in Montessori school at like two. Every last one, I went to Montessori at two years old, started education. So he was in a Montessori across town in Jacksonville, and she was in kindergarten over here. What I see the differences in those kids, and then Sarah came on, another one is, the difference is, is that the, the level of understanding around social things, right? The social norms for my two oldest ones are more aware and awake, where the two younger ones were. By that time, when it was their time to come, Dad's, that 11-year-old snuck up on me. I was 55. And my wife was 43. I'm well over 65 with an 11-year-old. And so the parenting, the energy and everything else is different. So you see a different kid where my younger ones with the energy and things that they have, they, they are not as, I would say, they're not as, as, as adventurous as these younger kids will be kids. I mean, that's normal stuff. But the only difference I see is that these other two got the top two got the energy that we had, and the bottom two didn't get the energy. And so there's, there's, there's a different, they're just different kids. One, you know what, here, my two older ones, you don't have to push them to do their homework and stuff. Because they know in the summertime, they read 45 minutes a day, and they have been programmed or conditioned. This last two, it's a fight. Why? Because we didn't have the energy to put into it. And that's the difference. I see. I don't see any difference in, in their character or anything that, it's just things around the house. They're all very smart. They all are. Every last one of them are introverts like their mom. They all suck a finger, some finger something, there's nothing. They all hum when they eat like their grandfather. It's hard. The only differences I can see within those kids are like those things. You know, my oldest one knows a lot of table manners. My youngest, it's hard for me to get him to know books for the printer. Right. Those are really the things for me as, as a Bob, I keep it simple. And the simplicity is, I mean, when issues arise are, you know, school things issue? You know, my mom's a math person, I'm new to the space, you know, so excuse me, but they will. I will say the difference that's Danelle parenting is parenting. For me, it's something I try to do more than what I as a kid, as a parent. So as a father, and I think fathers nowadays just need to be present.

Cinthia Varkevisser: And that's tough. And then learn how to sometimes, I, you see, I can talk all day long. Sometimes it's, I have, I have to listen a little bit more to the instead of giving so much stuff.

Michelle Walters: I love that. We've been talking about your, you know, fatherhood and your principles throughout. And we both have this philosophy that you're 100% of who you are 100% of the time. So you have these amazing businesses. I'd like to know how you apply those principles. How does it come out in your work?

Pastor Jones: So you have to be tender but tough as a parent. So what I say is tender but tough. And so the work that I do, I work in a nonprofit with low-income seniors and disabled seniors. And the program is contingent upon being qualified by your income. And some people want to hide some income to get the free work. So I have to be tough with them. And that matters. And then because they are seniors, and some of them, you know, I get to talk with them, I have to be tender. So when they're in their 80s, that's like parenting these senior citizens and helping them to get the applications processed and all that stuff that they need. And so with that program, I take just that piece of me, who I am, and apply it in those situations. And then sometimes they get under my skin and I want to chastise too. My executive director sat down and, like yesterday, it was a lady I've been after for months and months to get her stuff in. She really makes a whole lot of money. Her husband left her really well. And we've been really trying to help her. You know, it's not a lot of people in Berkeley and around our area which are cash poor. But this young lady has had some things given to her, she inherited, and we were trying to say inheritances not such an income only in that year that you inherited, after that it's no longer income. So we were trying to do something with that. And Miss Parker, she, she keeps asking. Then yesterday, I said something and she came to my office and my executive director said, you can't be doing that. By then I have a great relationship, and I was just being a little familiar. I said, Miss Parker, I've been trying to get these papers from you for months. So that was like, you know why I've been telling you to clean your room. Get the garbage cans out after the damage man leaves, don't leave your refrigerator open. Save different. So I love working with older adults.

Michelle Walters: Well, thank you so much for being on our special Father's Day episode of "Mind Power Meets Mystic." We had a delightful time talking with you, Pastor Jones, about fatherhood. Is there anything you want to share before we wrap up?

Pastor Jones: I hope that it was all that you expected. And what I do want to say about fatherhood is that it's a job. And it's a job that you cannot quit. Especially in today's world, it's a job that extends beyond your household. There are a lot of kids out there that need fathers that don't have. And so a father has to have that character, that conduct not only in the home, but where he sees it is needed, if it can be accepted. And then I would say that, you know, make every effort to do to keep your child invested in and learning, expose them in learning environments, and make sure that they, you know, that's what I say, especially our children of color, who do not have the opportunities that others have. And so I'm grateful to be able to work with all classes of people in all cultures. And so I'm grateful to say that we have some exciting and some dynamic children from the black and brown community that we touched as a community organizing worker and as a parent that I am proud of. And I hope that this podcast and what little bit of presentation that I had and that was simply from the heart, I hope it's enough.

Cinthia Varkevisser: Oh, I think it was absolutely perfect and totally beautiful. And I want to thank you for being on our show. And you have reminded me to be thankful for all the dads that helped my son. So I was a single mom, and did the best I could but my husband died and then my partner died. And so I really needed to rely on other dads to help. And it's thanks to you and the dads who stood up and saw the need in their community and that my son had good examples of fatherhood. So thank you.

Pastor Jones: You're welcome.

Cinthia Varkevisser: And thank you for being on our show.

Pastor Jones: You're welcome. It was a delight, Cinthia and Michelle. You guys have a wonderful and productive rest of your evening.